Webtorque

I don’t think I’ve ranted here about what a pointless occupation ‘blogging is, nor why all ‘bloggers should be shot through the back of the head with a small bore rifle. · (Apologies to Mike Elgan for the headline on this one)

"cookingforfun (http://www.grouprecipes.com/people/cookingforfun) wants to be your cooking buddy. You can login to accept or decline (http://www.grouprecipes.com/profile/)."
 “parent directory ” MP3 -xxx -html -htm -php -shtml -opendivx -md5 -md5sums
?intitle:index.of? mp3
Unless you’re Madonna, Coldplay or U2, chances are that you’re
not going to make money selling records.

Cereality has patents pending to give them an exclusive right to six business methods,
including "displaying and mixing competitively branded food products" and adding
"a third portion of liquid." If these patents are approved by the U.S. Patent Office,
Cereality would have a complete monopoly on cereal bar business.

The one incoherent view is the belief that a free and diverse media will naturally
tend towards equality. The development of weblogs in their first five years demonstrates
that is not always true, and gives us reason to suspect it may never be true. Equality
can only be guaranteed by limiting either diversity or freedom.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ven Ganeva
> Sent: 18 September 2005 20:18
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

> Should designers even try being techies?

Good question and one I am trying to work out myself! Being quite young, I still have a lot
to learn about the industry and I welcome people’s opinions on this.
....

What I can’t understand is where you draw the line, who is responsible for what? I
know that if I focused on just designing I could learn a lot more about css and
maybe if I focused on developing I would know how to optimise my code.

Some days I hear people telling me “you can’t be a jack of all trades - your either
a designer or a develop”. Other days I hear “you have the potential to be earning
millions as you can do a 2 man job”… so who do I believe? How exactly does it work?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Patterson
> Sent: 20 September 2005 10:11
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

{fixing his top-posting here}

>>On the role of the designer... Coming from product
>>and transportation design
>>I always get a bit confused when there's a
>>discussion about the role of the
>>designer and nobody is actually giving that role a
>>specific name.. such as
>>'web designer' or developer whatever. Isnt it a bit
>>vague?

Perhaps there are two things: How you classify
yourself, and what you are employed to do. Designer to
me is a mindset and it includes everyone from software
designers to set designers.

A good honest webdesigner in this day and age most
likely makes banners, microsites and upgrades to
existing websites. 

If they are lucky and more imganative in mindset you
get to do rich media stuff which blurs movies with
interaction.

If they are more analytical and 'IA' in mindset then
the world of mobile beckons.

Having spent a lot of time on organisational change
projects surrounding Intranets and Content managed
websites rescently I can see what happens when design
isn't in a process (it is a disaster). Likewise I look
at a lot of the front end upgrades of large corpoare
websites and think: what you are doin' aint design.
It's maintenance.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Baker-Bates
> Sent: 20 September 2005 23:26
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

>> Perhaps there are two things: How you classify
>> yourself, and what you are employed to do. Designer to
>> me is a mindset and it includes everyone from software
>> designers to set designers.
>> 

That's the first properly insightful thing anyone's said on this thread
and I'd certainly agree with it.

>> A good honest webdesigner in this day and age most
>> likely makes banners, microsites and upgrades to
>> existing websites.
>> 

I don't wish to offend, but you're describing a role that's a hybrid,
and its one that exists around the foothills of the industry. If you're
interested in career progression, I think you need to adjust your view
of what a "webdesigner" is or you'll wake up knocking 40 with a CV full
of not much.

I'm taking a guess that you're quite young. If I'm right, then you can
afford to perform this role for a short while (and it's certainly good
to get a general overview of the processes early on), but you need to
decide what you are, and develop the skills that sell in the long term.
As I said in my last post: these skills aren't mysterious, but they are
*not* mixed.

 > If they are more analytical and 'IA' in mindset then
 > the world of mobile beckons.

That's an interesting statement. Could you explain why you think that's
the case?

>> Likewise I look
>> at a lot of the front end upgrades of large corpoare
>> websites and think: what you are doin' aint design.
>> It's maintenance.
>> 

And you'd be right! But I'm can't tell whether you're being admirably
idealistic here, or just hopelessly naive.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Gibb
> Sent: 21 September 2005 11:46
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

I am 41, and tend to live in the present. But since
you mention it: I set up the first formal IA function
in the UK in the mid nineties (falling out of Siegel
Gale's ground breaking 'Information Gesign Group'),
won the DBA award for leading the design team that
built best corporate website in 1999 (for shell.com -
this was cited in 'No Logo'), was head hunted by
Clement Mok's Studio Archetype, and among other things
was one of three Directors who built Sapient's User
Experience team in the UK (from 3 to 150 between 1999
and 2001). I have been a Director at Sapient and
Scient and interim manager at Agency.com and Oyster. I
also planned and created the user experience team that
created OPODO.com among dozens of large design and
builds. I have written on digital design for Creative
Review, been profiled in Revolution, and invited by
the likes of BBC, BT, Orange and Wannado to talk to
their design teams about the future of digital design
and communications. My last statement comes from
working as a consultant with BT, Orange, Honda and a
lot of government departments in the last few years -
and have seen where the bulk (and that is the keyword
here) of the work is.

So my CV is OK, although still lots more I want to get
on it.

Not blowing my trumpet... it's just another thing
about being a designer is to research the context.
Otherwise you make assumptions about your audience.

You might be 'right' about the foothills. But what I
note is there aren't many unclimbed mountains out
there at the moment, but lots of little bumps.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Gibb
> Sent: 21 September 2005 12:03
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

> "That's an interesting statement. Could you explain
> why you think that's the case?"

You are an IA/EA whatever you call yourself, so go
figure. But if you haven't noticed that the edge of
design innovation has moved away from 'websites' to
iTV, intergrated experiences, gaming and most
crucially mobile in the digital domain, and bigger
societal issues elsewhere (eg.
http://www.massivechange.com/) then you are falling
behind the game.

I was with some of Motorola's team who have designed
the new iTunes phone recently, and trust me: THAT is
where the action is; the real interaction challenges
(and it is such a sweet solution they have come up
with... buy one, they are really nice).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Baker-Bates
> Sent: 21 September 2005 22:49
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design
> 

>> Funny!
>>
>> I am 41, and tend to live in the present. But since
>> you mention it: I set up the first formal IA function
>> in the UK in the mid nineties 

I said I thought you might be "quite young." Well, life begins at 40!

But much as I'm interested in your background and views about where the
action is, I'd like to pursue the topic of whether designers should be
cross-disciplined or not, since that's where we came from before your CV
flew in.

I see you agreed with my assessment that expanding a creative skillset
into PHP wrangling (or whatever) isn't a good career move. So, given
your experience in the industry, what was your point in saying that "A
good honest webdesigner... makes banners, microsites and upgrades to
existing websites"? Do such people work with you at BT, Orange and
Honda? Did you recruit such people for the team at Opodo?

The reason why I'm asking is that I think some people on this list see a
career to be made out of keeping feet in both camps. I think that's just
going to hold them back. Would you agree?

Jonathan

PS:

 >>And you'd be right! But I'm can't tell whether
 >>you're being admirably
 >>idealistic here, or just hopelessly naive.

I'm assuming the former is correct.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Baker-Bates
> Sent: 21 September 2005 23:17
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design

>>"That's an interesting statement. Could you explain
>> why you think that's the case?"
>>
> You are an IA/EA whatever you call yourself,

OK I should have re-phrased it - it was a *potentially* interesting
statement, but that was a pretty boring answer.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you at all on this. I was
merely fishing for some good conversation. I'll move on.

Jonathan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Gibb
> Sent: 22 September 2005 11:11
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design

Again no research, just your opinion based on your
personal reaction. How do you know it is a boring
answer?

What you really mean is: you find it a boring answer.

Others may not. And you did ask the question. Methinks
you are stamping your feet because you didn't like the
answer.

Do move on. Why not go and see
http://www.wearewhatwedo.org/ on Monday. 

It might make you think about the impact of your work
and words as oppose you opinions.

Does it make a difference if you work for an agency
who have the luxury of being able to employ people in
lots of roles as their main revenunes comes from
promoting tobbaco - meaning Framfabs Philip Morris. 

I'd say yes.

So maybe that is the issue. Not what role you do, but
what impact you have. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Baker-Bates
> Sent: 22 September 2005 23:30
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: Design

>Again no research, just your opinion based on your
>> personal reaction. How do you know it is a boring
>> answer?
>>
>> What you really mean is: you find it a boring answer.
>> 

I don't recall using a collective noun about my *own* opinion. But
again, you are right: I found your answer boring. Sorry about that.

 > Does it make a difference if you work for an agency
 > who have the luxury of being able to employ people in
 > lots of roles as their main revenunes comes from
 > promoting tobbaco - meaning Framfabs Philip Morris.
 >
 > I'd say yes.
 >
 > So maybe that is the issue. Not what role you do, but
 > what impact you have.

What is it with your non-sequiturs? One minute we're talking about
skillsets and roles, the next I'm being accused of moral turpitude!

Mr Gibb, I'd rather this discussion was not forestalled by Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

Jonathan

"The industry needed something much better to deal with the piracy problem. Studios said
in a high-def world, we're going to have to have a very different way of viewing content.
...
"The downside is that all your existing flat panel monitors and projectors
aren't going to work with high-def videos in Vista. Bad news."

For the past three years I have been building an Anglo-Saxon castle in the garden of my house,
using only traditional tools and materials.

Having laid the foundations and dug the moat, I would like to fill the moat so as to test its
integrity (both of itself and against invaders) before progressing to erecting the walls.

I understand the traditional way of doing this is to tap a river or a stream, and supplement
this with ox-drawn carts filled with barrels of fresh water. However, being in Brockley, I'm
too far from the Thames to do this (a distance of about 2 miles as the crow flies). There are
also no tube stations near enough for me to tunnel the water from there. While I think I could
construct the necessary carts, I would not have the space in the remainder of my garden to rear
the oxen to draw them. My neighbours have made some comments on the fact that I have begun
rearing goats and some chickens to produce the considerable tonnage of dung for wattle daub
I will need later on in the construction.

So I am considering using a Chinese technique from about the same historical era of using
giant kites to lift Thames water into place above the moat and pour it in from there.

Does anyone have any experience with this particular technique (which, I understand, will
require considerable resources and manpower to implement), or indeed defensive Angle-Saxon
moat building in general?

Any advice much appreciated. And if you also have any tips for laying long-and-short
quoins I would also be grateful as my initial attempts at this were not successful.

Jonathan

The license fees that PPL collects are then distributed to the rightful owner ...
usually the record company responsible for creating the track - and also the performers
who played that track.
I worked damn hard for this, and I'm not going to let you, or them, or the rightful owner take it away from me!

We certainly want to reduce the level of terror, certainly not escalate it.  There is one easy
way to do that and therefore it is never discussed. Namely stop participating in it. That would
automatically reduce the level of terror enormously. But that you can’t discuss. Well, we ought
to make it possible to discuss it. So that’s one easy way to reduce the level of terror.

Beyond that, we should rethink the kinds of policies, and Afghanistan is not the only one,
in which we organize and train terrorist armies. That has effects. We’re seeing some of these
effects now. September 11th is one. Rethink it.

Rethink the policies that are creating a reservoir of support. Exactly what the bankers,
lawyers and so on are saying in places like Saudi Arabia. On the streets it’s much more bitter,
as you can imagine. That’s possible. You know, those policies aren’t graven in stone.

And the meaning of words;
When they cease to function;
When there's nothing to say;
When will it start worrying you?

"We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting
its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other
affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting
acts of infringement by third parties"

In the United States, it's legal to sell armour-piercing ammunition:
bullets whose sole purpose is to go through bulletproof vests;
obviously a device designed to kill or maim human beings. The
manufacturers to do not even make the pretense of proposing other
uses for said ammunition. This activity is all fine and legal.

By comparison, a device that may or may not be designed for, but
is certainly capable of, infringing copyright is deemed illegal.
The manufacturers at least attempt the pretense of proposing legal
uses for the technology and make a somewhat-better-than-marginal
case for its legit use. This is not fine or legal.

Question for the supreme court: do you really believe the copyright
of the Bay City Rollers first album is more deserving of legal
protection than a human life?

Nero
    Nero OEM
       Nero Cover Designer
       Nero Express
    Nero Toolkit
       Nero CD-DVD Speed
       Nero DriveSpeed

    User's Guides
    Nero Smartstart
    Nero Digital

"...the internet has begun to work as it should. Thanks to broadband, students now routinely download
the best television shows — at the moment, that means the US hospital comedy Scrubs — over the net and,
happily, pass them on to me. Video is now at the same stage as audio was when Napster first started.
Just as MP3 chipped away at the foundations of the record industry, so video downloading is subverting
television and film.

Page Name X
     Intro text (to be written)
     Document 1
     Document 2
           Page Name Y
                Intro text
                Body text (to be written)
                Other text
Page Name Z
     Summary (to be shortened)
     Document 3

Dear Robert Evans,

I read today that the European Patent Directive is not likely to return to the first reading
as previously demanded by Parliament, and that the Commission may ignore the Parliament's vote
on restarting the legislative process for this bill.

While in the past I have contacted my parliamentary and other representatives about software
patents, and concentrated on the fact that software patents cannot be anything other than
deeply corrosive to innovation, consumer choice and the health of the UK software industry,
I want now to turn to something that has made me even more worried: the overwhelming evidence
I am starting to see of democracy being simply ignored in Europe.

How can it be that obviously bad legislation is being railroaded through by the Commission
when nobody other than corporate lobbyists support it? 

- The elected European Parliament are 100% AGAINST (this version of directive)
- The majority of the The European Council of Ministers are AGAINST (with new
countries joining the against all the time)
- European citizens/software users (who know about it) are all AGAINST
- European software-industry alliances/coalitions are all AGAINST
- European software companies are nearly all AGAINST
- European programmers are (probably) all AGAINST

Who does this leave in favour?

- The UK & European Patent Offices
- A small number of very rich companies
- UNELECTED civil servants

What is going on? Where is the democratic process here?

I am very, very concerned at the events that have taken place in the last
12 months on this issue.

Yours sincerely,

Jonathan Baker-Bates

"It is impossible that old prejudices and hostilities should longer exist, while such
an instrument has been created for the exchange of thought between all nations of the
earth."

phreakuencies writes "Worried since the recent post about the MN4 2004
asteroid, I added a bookmark to it's "impact risk" section at NASA. The
asteroid started as having a 1/233 probability of hitting earth. Later it
raised to 1/63. Daily computations made on 25 Dec raised it's chances up to
1/45. Optimists can now say it has a 97.8% probability of missing earth."
And Veteran writes " NeoDys offers the 'Orbfit' software package (source
code released under the GPL) which can be used to get a pre-release view of
 the situation with Asteroid 2004MN4."

>
> WHAT BOOK ARE YOU READING?
I don't read books. I read one a few months ago but it was geeky and too
embarrassing to mention in public ("The Humane Interface" by Jef
Raskin - see?)

>
> WHAT'S ON YOUR MOUSE PAD?
It's a scale replica of a native-American rug complete with fuzzy
"rug-like" surface and little tassels. My sister bought it in Milwaukee or somewhere like that.

>
> WHAT'S YOUR FAVOURITE BOARD GAME?
I used to play Lotto. But then that was hijacked by Camelot.

>
> FAVOURITE MAGAZINES?
Ah, dead tree media. Select closed down, so did Melody Maker. Now it's The Wire and
What Bike? (once a quarter maybe).

>
> FAVOURITE SOUNDS? (OR SMELL)
I am really liking Julian Cope at the moment.

> WORST FEELING IN THE WORLD?
The one you get just after you realise you have hit that car, and just
before you hit the ground.

>
> FIRST THING YOU THINK OF IN THE MORNING?
Why does a four-year-old boy want to jump on my head?

>
> FUTURE CHILD'S NAME?
If Axel had been a girl, she would have been called Ariel. I think I've got the spelling right.

> WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IN LIFE?
Getting Americans to understand that they must outlaw Fox News, *then*
shoot George Bush. Doing it the other way around will ultimately achieve nothing.

>
> FAVOURITE FOOD?
There's a Japanese gourd pickled in the sludge that floats to the bottom
 of sake barrels. That and molasses. And saag aloo. And pecan nuts.

>
> DO YOU LIKE TO DRIVE FAST?
No. See "Worst Feeling" above.

>
> STORMS - COOL OR SCARY?
Cool.

>
> WHAT TYPE WAS YOUR FIRST CAR?
Suzuki Swift. An automatic for the people.

>
> FAVOURITE ALCOHOLIC DRINK?

http://www.bisonbrandvodka.net/

>
> DO YOU EAT THE STEMS OF BROCCOLI?
Yes. Raw is best.

> IF YOU COULD HAVE ANY JOB YOU WANTED WHAT WOULD IT BE?
A&R man for Warp Records. Which is odd considering I hate the music
publishing industry so much.

>
> IF YOU COULD DYE YOUR HAIR ANY COLOUR WHAT WOULD IT BE?
I've tried blonde (well, "ivory") and black. I once had both. I'd like a
tasteful shade of very dark purple I think. Grecian 2000 is beginning to sound
like a sensible option though.

> FAVOURITE MOVIE?
Eraserhead - because of the Radiator Woman.

>
> DO YOU TYPE WITH CORRECT FINGERS ON THE RIGHT KEYS
Yes. It's important that people feel subjugated by machines in order to
understand how they can be liberated from them. It's a perverted Marxist
thing I know, but I believe it's the only way.

>
> WHAT'S UNDER YOUR BED?
Dust - much of it. And hair with the dust.

>
> WHAT IS YOUR FAVOURITE SPORT TO WATCH?
I don't watch sport, or play it. It's fun in small doses but after a
while I get bored. Noam Chomsky says sports exist in society to instill patterns
of obedience in people and act as mechanisms of oppression. I wouldn't go that far though.

>
> AT LEAST ONE NICE THING ABOUT THE PERSON WHO SENT THIS TO YOU?
The ability to make you feel that while he hates you you're in fact a good friend.
A very good Japanese linguist.

>
> WHICH IS THE PERSON YOU SEND THIS TO WHO IS MOST LIKELY TO
> RESPOND?
I've not decided who the BCC will contain yet. (It got blogged in the end - Ed.)

> WHICH PERSON YOU SEND THIS TO WHO IS LEAST LIKELY TO RESPOND?
No idea.

>
> HORROR OR COMEDY?
Comedy. There's enough to be scared of in daily life.

> FAVOURITE TIME OF DAY.
Evenings by the light of the CRT.

>
> PET HATE?
Faxes. The way Michael Buerk winks when he reads the news. The fact that
people (including myself) seem afraid of clarity in life and prefer to
hide inside needless complexity in things.

>
> IS THERE ANYONE YOU HAVE NEVER FORGIVEN,
> EVER?
What kind of question is that? Really - what is it?

>
> WHAT TYPE OF MILK DO YOU DRINK?
Drinking milk - yuk. It's for tea and lasagna.

>
> DID YOU MAKE YOUR BED THIS MORNING?
No. We are duvet divas.

>
> HOW MANY TVs IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD?
One.

>
> WHO PUTS THE BIN OUT?
Me. But nobody would admit to not doing it, surely?

>
> WHAT IS YOUR EARLIEST CHILDHOOD MEMORY?
I think it was seeing my sister for the first time in a translucent pink
plastic box after she was born. I also have some recollection of smearing
poo on the bars of my cot. Well you did ask for honesty - didn't you?
No? Oh. Sorry.

eBay Purchase        £540.00 (less £20 from auction price for lack of a log book)
Van Hire	      £90.00
Service	             £123.68
Log Book	      £19.00
Lock & Tarp	      £86.49
Tax	              £15.00
Datatag	              £15.50

TOTAL:               £889.67

Insurance (annual)   £147.25

This study examines user movement through hierarchically structured Web sites
and the behavioral effects of a constantly visible, textual contents list...
Users ... dig deeper into the site structure, make less use of the browser’s Back
button, and frequently make navigational movements of great hierarchical
distances.

This study examines the effect of giving people a fast car to get to
where they want to go, as compared to a slow one. Users... when given a
1990 Porsche 911 Turbo, the majority of those tested could get to Birmingham
from London in under 68 minutes and had reportedly more fun, and broke down
significantly less on the way compared to those that were given a
1978 Hillman Avenger for the same journey."

Brooker may write in a paper, but he still posts
like he was on a newsgroup. You do know what they're saying
on IRC, right? Do you read what the little green forums of
the world spit out on a daily basis? Have you seen the
Indymediots, the Freepers, the lists, the feeds, the
unmoderated masses? Do you remember what you yourself wrote
*last night*? You've heard the Bush jokes, the Kerry jokes,
the Blair jokes: are we supposed to take all of those
seriously, too?
www.arbitary.i12.com
- we wish to complain about the portrayal of Micro Machines V3

The criteria that (accessory a) can be ordered only when atleast (product a), (product b)
would remain the same with the (accessory b) being added into it. So now, the
(accessory a) option should be shown only if atleast the (product a), (product b)
or (accessory b) is to be shown and is in stock.

----------
From: bill drummond 
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 00:08:29 -0700

Dear member of The Seventeen,

Your Services are required at 7pm on 6 October 2004 at the new (but
unfinished) Artsdepot building at the Tally-Ho, North Finchley. Look for the
door with The Seventeen on it.
Your services will be required for up to two hours, in which time you will
be required to use your voice creatively in a lateral way. You will not be
paid for your services but refreshments will be provided and each member
will be given a pair of tickets for How To Be An Artist.

Yours

Bill Drummond.

"If Haydn had patented 'a symphony, characterised by that sound is
produced { in extended sonata form },' Mozart would have been in trouble."

Q. Can I use my current Barclaycard in the new PIN pads?
A. Yes. However, instead of being asked to key in your PIN you will be asked to
sign the receipt as you do now.

We will be sending you a new chip and PIN Barclaycard within 18 months...
Q. When I receive my new chip and PIN Barclaycard, can I use it straight away?
A. Yes - as soon as you've called us to activate it.

I had a wonderful argument/conversation with one of the client-side developers today.
Went something like this:
He: We have a problem because section XYZ of the site isn't accessibility compliant.
Me: That's OK, 'cos neither is much else on the site.
He: What do you mean? I've taken great pains to make it compliant!
Me: Well, if  I turn off Javascript and go to the site with Firefox, various
things don't work. I'm cool with that though 'cos we've not told the client it
would be completely up to snuff.
He: Rubbish - Firefox must have bugs! When I turn off Active Scripting in IE
all is well.
Me: Well, I suppose maybe. It was only a quick test I did.
He: Anyway, I'm not interested in Firefox, not a target browser, I'd be
surprised if more than 0.1% of {company name} customers us it. And they'd be geeks.
Me: I'd be surprised if more than 0.1% of {company name} customers use screen
readers, text browsers or are classified disabled. You were pointing out an
accessibility issue, remember?
He: Hrmph. It's a fair cop.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nico Macdonald [mailto:nicolist@spy.co.uk]
> Sent: 18 August 2004 13:24
> To: Jonathan
> Subject: Re: [uk-design] GUI innovation (was Trademarking)
>

>
> As I note in a forthcoming Guardian Online article:
>
> "There is little serious or practical discussion in the IT
> industry about the future of the GUI, and how we might move on.
> We have few grand visions, and even fewer leaders capable of
> implementing them. Instead we are fiddling with and tweaking a
> late-70s legacy.
> 

How about this for an alternative interpretation: What is so wrong with a late-70's legacy,
and could the basic ideas you seem to be fighting against simply be "good enough" to remain
fundamentally unchanged? The Stephenson rail gauge, the QUERTY keyboard, 240 volts, VHS tapes...
None of them were the best at the time, and none are the best now, but their continued use
shows that they meet - and now feed in to - the requirements placed on them. The arguments
around them at their inception have moved on to higher things, and there's nothing to say the
same thing can't happen with the way we interact with computers. We can't really afford to keep
ploughing up and re-seeding something as important as the interface to the personal computer, can we?
Well, as long as that computer has a screen to look at, anyway.

As for things that are not documents, and the need to deal with large numbers of objects perhaps
 visually or semantically - there is still a chance you may be missing the point if the *need*
to do so never truly materialises. User testing of radial menus, for instance, has shown them to
be inferior in terms of learnabilty compared to more traditional methods (I'll drag up the
reference for that if you want). That doesn't make them bad, it means that they may be good for
specialist use by trained operators. That's par for the course in other fields: court stenographers
use those weird little piano keyboards to type at massive speeds using syllabic chords, but it
takes them years to learn how. Similarly with claims by HCI academics that businesses would benefit
from being able to visualise their MIS data. The idea's been around for about 30 years, but spatial
interfaces aren't exactly the first thing Sir John Harvey-Jones recommends to struggling firms. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle your ability to identify or theorise about different
ways of doing things in HCI (which would appear to be far superior to my own), just that you seem
to be missing some wider aspects of things like the social or historical context for these things.
Like Clay Shirky says, whenever you think about what *should* happen, it distracts you from
thinking about what will.

> I guess you are referring to the lack of a desktop trash in MacOS 

Ah, no. I was referring to Job's supposed quote about getting rid of the spatial Finder in favour
 the more "Explorer" like file manger in OSX. "Spatial" here simply means file organisation
"in space," as in a desktop with folders scattered across it, or sub-folders with files arbitrarily
 grouped together by the user, given colours, etc. He is said to have retorted that the old finder
"forced users to be janitors," which he thought was a bad thing. 

Last I looked, there was a trash can on the desktop of OSX. Was there not one at some point? 

Jonathan

FOOTNOTE

I’ve participated in usability testing at MSFT (Score:5, Interesting)